Author Topic: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010  (Read 17759 times)

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isoutar

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Hi Everyone

Here is a full spec sheet for ChangHong Batteries newest Nickel Iron battery targeted specifically for the solar and renewable energy markets.   The document was released just a few days ago.   It is a .pdf ... quite large so be patient for 30 seconds while it opens.   This battery is unique among NiFe batteries in its electrolyte capacity.   It is about 20% taller so that checking the electrolyte only needs to be done several times a year.   

Combiner caps are available for their products ... these caps combine the h2 and o2 into water that drips back into the cell.   I will post a data sheet about these special caps when it is issued.

This solar NiFe battery is targeted specially at the North American market which they know has not seen nickel iron batteries for some 35 years.   The European market is about to boom for Nickel Iron since flooded Nickel Cadmium batteries have commonly been used in Europe since the 1890s for telephone and other backup power supplies.   However Cadmium is being banned in Europe for batteries.   NiFe is the obvious subsitute since it has identical charge characteristics and voltage output. 

http://microsec.net/Solar Nickel Iron battery.pdf

Ian Soutar
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:15:31 PM by isoutar »

bj

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 02:11:22 PM »
Thanks Ian--saved the file.  Of interest, as will be buying batteries in the not too distant future, and cost is not my first
consideration, but long life is.  (it would be great if they outlasted me)
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
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isoutar

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 04:27:48 PM »
Long life is my most important consideration for renewable energy.  I do not want consumables such as lead acid batteries to be part of my system.  Now that NiFe batteries are installed in my home ... batteries will never again be an issue in my lifetime.   I am 61 and I can count on not much more than 20 years of life ... well within the battery lifespan.

I abuse my batteries terribly just for fun.   No problem since they can take complete discharges and quite extreme overcharges for years.    I do not have to worry about a malfunction of the electronics killing the battery pack.

The new solar batteries are better than my older style ones ... they only need to be topped up with water twice a year or less.   However mine need to be topped every 2 months.    Not a big deal but the new style is attractive for unattended operation.   It would appear that the reserve area for the electrolyte in the new design is about twice the size of the electrode area.    That makes it about 10 times bigger than the reserve area in my standard NiFe batteries.

Ian

SteveCH

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2010, 12:54:11 PM »
Well, this gets my interest. My 20-yr.-old batteries are still working but weakening, lead/acid forklift stuff. I have done some limited searching for more info on these NiFe things, are they even sold in the USA? Where? I have zero idea of what they cost, how far I'd have to have them shipped, etc.

If someone can point me in a direction, thanks......

bj

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 10:34:24 AM »
Hi Ian--you are probably going to get pestered with questions a bit, as you seem to be fairly well informed on these batteries.  I did some searching on Changhong's
site, including some translations, and no mention of Americas for batteries.  Do you know if they will deal direct?  I realize this is a new product for them, and they
might not be expecting interest right away.
If you don't know, I will try the E-mail link, and hope I don't offend them in the translation.
I know the initial cost will be higher, just trying to get a feel for whether I have to save for a while, or take out a mortgage.
Either way, many thanks Ian.
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
Lamont AB Can.

SteveCH

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 12:07:51 PM »
Yeah, I did some more searching last night and, so far, haven't found any reference to them being sold in the US. Actually, I didn't see them sold anywhere, so perhaps the web site for them is premature. We'll just have to keep checking now and then.

isoutar

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2010, 11:08:01 AM »
Suppliers are best found on the nickel iron battery association site.

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com

They are available mainly from China, which is where I imported the ones shown on the site installed in a  house.

Ian

bj

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2010, 03:27:56 PM »
  Ian, slightly embarrassed  to admit I hadn't previously read that to the end.  Thank you
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
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WindriderNM

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2010, 04:04:07 PM »
There is a Co. in Montana that manufactures and sells them.
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WindriderNM

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2010, 04:27:26 PM »
Here are more suppliers of these batteries

http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe USA supplier of NiFe batteries

http://www.zappworks.com/ USA manufacturer and supplier of NiFe batteries in Montana

http://www.microsec.net   Canadian Supplier of ChangHong batteries, Victoria BC

www.changhongbatteries.com Changhong Battery Manufacturer in China

http://www.ironcorepower.com.au Iron Core Power in Australia, Dealers in Solar and NiFe Batteries

http://www.agofuelcells.com AGO Environmental Electronics in Canada (custom orders, also sells hydrogen fuel cells)

http://www.accumkursk.ru   Kursk Accumulator Plant NiFe Manufacturer in Russia
~~~WindriderNM (Electron Recycler)~~~   
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SteveCH

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2010, 05:26:18 PM »
Suppliers are best found on the nickel iron battery association site.

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com

They are available mainly from China, which is where I imported the ones shown on the site installed in a  house.

Ian

Now thanks for this. I was unable to find anything like this searching on my own. Very impressive. I will have to get over the price, which has left me a bit breathless. But the longevity is attractive, among other things. Much food for contemplation.

Bruce S

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2010, 10:26:51 AM »
Suppliers are best found on the nickel iron battery association site.

http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com

They are available mainly from China, which is where I imported the ones shown on the site installed in a  house.

Ian
Ian;
 On this website there is a contact for battery researchers, where a smallish size can be ordered. What's the possibility of being labeled a battery researcher?
While talking with my 85 year old Father-in-law, he remembers using these in the labs ( Chemistry professor/dean before retiring) and would like to see these.
He remembers them being heavy and mixing the KOH.

Plus the cost of shipping to the USA to a postal code of 63043 ( we do have a lift gate)
Won't need more than 2 for now.
Cheers
Bruce S
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SteveCH

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2010, 12:39:52 PM »
Here are more suppliers of these batteries

http://www.zappworks.com/ USA manufacturer and supplier of NiFe batteries in Montana



I am quite intrigued now, and my old lead/acid set is not long for life. I prefer to deal with a co. making them here in the states if possible, the above Zappworks. Has anyone experience with these guys or know anyone who has??? This is huge money, though there are also huge benefits to this technology over lead/acid, or would be in my particular case. So far I don't know anyone who has used the Zapp product.

Any reports???

bob g

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 12:51:17 AM »
tell me what the benefits are over heavy lead acid such as the 5000 series rolls/surrette batteries?

they are good for 3000 cycles to 50% soc, iirc


having a battery bank that lasts a hundred years in float is of little value to me, i need a bank i can work
and work hard for a minimum of 3000 cycles,

factoring in costs, and also factoring in charge efficiencies,  are the nickle iron batteries all that and a bag of chips
really?

are the NI batteries good for 3k cycles, then do you simply wash them out, change the electrolyte and run them
for another 3k cycles?  or are they used up then?

bob g
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large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
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isoutar

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2010, 02:50:08 PM »
Bob

Something to keep in mind is why the price is so different between lead acid and NiFe.   Nickel is 10 times the price of lead as a metal.   The battery is 1/2 nickel and 1/2 iron ... iron being amost worthless.   If the NiFe battery actually does expire the metal value remains high.

Read the manual from ChangHong which will answer most questions.   The huge differences between Lead Acid and NiFe include ...

1/ NiFe contains no toxic heavy metals.   The USA Dept of Energy points out that 3% of lead acid batteries end up being lost to the environment due to unscrupulous recyclers and negligent owners.

2/ The NiFe battery if charged and discharged totally (full voltage and right down to zero volts) is good for only about 1000 charges.    However a lead acid battery would only survive one or two such complete discharges before it would be ruined.   There is no deadly action that will cause an NiFe battery to fail just from one or even several hundred complete discharges to zero volts.

3/ The NiFe battery if only 30% discharged on the average is good for 5K to 10K charge - discharges including the occasional discharge right down to zero volts are both possible and have no negative effects.

4/ Overcharging the battery has no negative effects.

5/ The definition of an expired NiFe cell is when its output is less than 70% of manufactured capacity.    Many people buy expired NiFe batteries made by the Edison Storage Battery Co from 30 - 90 years ago.and are getting more than 50% capacity by simply washing them and replacing the electrolyte.   They simply do not die suddenly and catastrophically like lead acid batteries often do.

6/ The rule of thumb for nickel iron batteries as quoted from Edison "Work them hard and overcharge" ... which demonstrates their robustness.

I would not have built a solar voltaic system for my house if I had to use lead acid batteries.   They are a consumable and even when guaranteed for 20 years the lead acid battery rarely gets past 12 years or less.   

Curious to know if anyone has gone beyond 12 years on lead ... and with what remaining capacity?


thirteen

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2010, 04:09:59 PM »
 I've never thought of this but some of the nickle iron batteries advertized for sale list themselves as power output in KW not amp hours. Is there a translation differencebetween the two from China to here? I am not sure just asking. Some also say they are made in the USA some say they only come from China or Hungary. Same battery different name different prices. But they do sound like a good battery design.
MntMnROY 13

bob g

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 10:23:53 AM »
Isoutar:

for expediency i did a copy and paste job

"1/ NiFe contains no toxic heavy metals.   The USA Dept of Energy points out that 3% of lead acid batteries end up being lost to the environment due to unscrupulous recyclers and negligent owners."

this is a fair point, but i would like to add this to the discussion, it is highly doubtful 3% of deep cycle batteries simply get thrown in the dump, car batteries on the other hand probably make up the vast majority of those simply pitched in a ditch and not recycled properly, also the chinese have a horrible record for dumping toxics so even though the ni/fe battery is non toxic it hardly offsets the other major toxic problem they are responsible for, and...

bearing in mind it is a good thing to be clean and recycle, i cannot afford to worry about others practices, but rather concern myself with best value and do the responsible thing myself and recycle toxic's and buy from reputable sources that do a good job of doing the same with toxics.  in the end i suspect that buying deep cycles from rolls/surrette or trojan is probably cleaner overall than buying a ni/fe battery from china all things considered.

"2/ The NiFe battery if charged and discharged totally (full voltage and right down to zero volts) is good for only about 1000 charges.    However a lead acid battery would only survive one or two such complete discharges before it would be ruined.   There is no deadly action that will cause an NiFe battery to fail just from one or even several hundred complete discharges to zero volts."

its nice to know that the ni/fe battery can take discharges to zero for a thousand cycles without damage, even the best flooded cells don't fair well with this abuse, the agm however can tolerate such abuse but likely not for a thousand cycles. having said that i am thinking that any system that is designed to subject a battery bank to this abuse is likely either not designed properly or is of special service design such as a ups system and not something an offgrid guy should ever design or allow to happen  but on exceedingly rare  occurrence.

"3/ The NiFe battery if only 30% discharged on the average is good for 5K to 10K charge - discharges including the occasional discharge right down to zero volts are both possible and have no negative effects."

do you have reference to this?  5k cycles maybe, but 10k cycles? that would be a game changer for me.

"4/ Overcharging the battery has no negative effects."

good to know, however anyone that has several thousand dollars invested in lead acid batteries ought to have
a redundant control of charging so that overcharging is something that is very unlikely if not impossible.

"5/ The definition of an expired NiFe cell is when its output is less than 70% of manufactured capacity.    Many people buy expired NiFe batteries made by the Edison Storage Battery Co from 30 - 90 years ago.and are getting more than 50% capacity by simply washing them and replacing the electrolyte.   They simply do not die suddenly and catastrophically like lead acid batteries often do."

this is good to know as well, and if this is truly the case would also be a game changer for me.

"6/ The rule of thumb for nickel iron batteries as quoted from Edison "Work them hard and overcharge" ... which demonstrates their robustness."

all well and good if you are a fan of edison  :)

"I would not have built a solar voltaic system for my house if I had to use lead acid batteries.   They are a consumable and even when guaranteed for 20 years the lead acid battery rarely gets past 12 years or less.   "

my problem is i don't know anyone that has been living with any battery technology that has been doing so for 20 years
and certainly none that have lived with a single set for the same,, not because they don't exist i suppose but i don't know them personally, that goes for either lead/acid or with ni/fe technology

"Curious to know if anyone has gone beyond 12 years on lead ... and with what remaining capacity?"

i am curious to know anyone that bought a set of ne/fi batteries new and have used them in an offgrid home for 20 years
and with what remaining capacity after this length of time.

you see i am trying to get a very indepth understanding of all the details of the ni/fe battery as made by the current manufactures
so that i an crunch the numbers and do a comprehensive analysis to see what the true cost of one technology is over another.

judging one battery against another solely on longevity or worse solely on the longevity of the original edison battery may be folly.

just as expecting  a current production listeroid will run as long, as efficiently, and as reliably as the original lister engines, i want to know a lot more about the ni/fe before i just blindly buy into the hype.

just because a yugo looks like, acts like, and is a car like a vw golf, does not necessarily mean i would get the same kind of service from the yugo, even if it were expensive.

is there anyone here that has bought and used a set of ni/fe batteries from new for even 5 years or more in an offgrid application where they are worked instead of placed in float service? 

that sort of info would really be useful, at least to me

thanks for your input, it is appreciated

bob g
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large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

Bruce S

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 10:59:31 AM »
Bob g;
   I am very curious about the information that hopefully will be posted here.

I have a fellow employee that I helped get bitten by the RE bug.

She and her husband, living South East of San Fran are now getting bids to install enough Solar, batteries and all the accessories to go grid tie included.
Until I tell them to look into NiFe based batteries, I need to know the extra expense is well worth, not just the money, but ease of use and long term too. Their current quote is above the 50Gs mark and I surely do not want that to lead them down the wrong path. Hence my post about getting a few for myself, with no answer yet...
Lead-Acid batteries are easy to understand and the limited life is something people can quickly understand as well.
The "unscrupulous recyclers and negligent owners" is much smaller around here as people find that Lead is still an easy recycle material with a known dollar amount, so even finding old car batteries laying around is becoming scarce.

Bruce S



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isoutar

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2010, 12:26:16 PM »
I suggest going back and looking at the solar nife manual.   It is quite complete and answers most of the questions.

BeUtilityFree has 20 year NiFe users ... worth sending a note to them to find a contact to talk to that is using theirs.   They have been in business for about 20 years in the USA and have been selling new ChangHong batteries right from the start.

Ian

dnix71

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2010, 02:03:48 PM »
I think the biggest drawback on NiFe is the electrolyte being a base. If you don't keep them sealed the CO2 in the air slowly neutralizes the electrolyte and deposits carbonates on the plates. To prevent that you need a pretty good expansion/recombining catalyst system to keep air out.

Automobile radiators have a pressure cap and overflow bottle not just to raise the boiling point of the coolant. It keeps out air and reduces oxidation of the cooling system.

Lead acid batteries are fragile in heavy cycling use but they have well know properties and I can buy them cheap and recycle locally at no extra cost. I wouldn't mind switching over to something non toxic and with better cycling properties, but the price of NiFe right now is way too high because of their shipping costs.

joestue

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2010, 02:56:37 PM »
I'm more concerned about the number of kilowatt hours i can get out of the batteries over its lifespan than i am about its life span.

If lead acid delivers life cycle cost of 25 cents per kwh for my application and ni-fe 45, pb-so4 is better.

If you need 99.999% up time and want to have batteries last you a life time even if they are 60% efficient.. that's up to you.
Personally its a wash from my point of view, if ni-fe was cheaper there would be more manufacturers making them.

nickel is down to $11/lb from the high $20's a few years ago. if ni-fe prices drop accordingly perhaps more will consider them.

another question for those who tend to believe conspiracy theories, whatever happened to the ni-zn battery? it offers 1.6-1.8 volts per cell and should only be marginally more expensive than ni-fe cells...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 03:00:28 PM by joestue »
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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 04:08:18 PM »
I think the biggest drawback on NiFe is the electrolyte being a base. If you don't keep them sealed the CO2 in the air slowly neutralizes the electrolyte and deposits carbonates on the plates. To prevent that you need a pretty good expansion/recombining catalyst system to keep air out.

I thought I read someplace that a thin layer of mineral oil would keep that from happening?

Maybe it was another application?

I had Maintenance do  that to keep floor drains from drying out and letting sewer stink into the building from seldom used drains when I played plant manager long ago  in a galaxy far far away.

Tom

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2010, 08:31:20 PM »
Been looking into these myself, and think they're an intriguing replacement for FLA, but one problem... How does someone like me get a hold of the chemistry for evaluation purposes without selling one of my kids?

Wait a minute... that just gave me an... Oh, sorry  :P

Anyway, since there aren't very many manufacturers, and the cells that are being built are large and expensive, how does someone like me with only inquisitive tendencies toward these things ever check one out?

I really don't feel the urge to go and try and build one myself, particularly since there are 'advancements' from the basic concepts (ie nickel hydroxide, etc) that would be difficult to implement...

Hmmm...

Steve
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independent

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »
yep. tomw, pure mineral oil for nife cells can be bought in large in enough quantities from a veterinarian's supplies. done it myself.

BigBreaker

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2010, 09:39:46 AM »
The near infinite life span of NiFe is attractive but I will be sorely disappointed if we don't have better battery technology in 7-10 years.  Electric vehicles are going to drive a huge amount of research into improved chemistries and manufacturing techniques.  There is an argument for going with cheap lead for 7 years with the goal of replacing them with something better/cheaper/more durable when they wear out.  What if A123 type batteries become as cheap as lead-acid? or eeStor cells actually ship?

With NiFe you may pay for longevity that you don't need.  If the zombie apocalypse comes, you'll wish you had your forever batteries but is that really likely?   

SteveCH

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2010, 11:32:24 AM »
I've been speaking with the Ni/Fe makers and the mineral oil thing came up in conversation last month. The guy I was talking to at the time said that the failure to use the mineral oil would be a mistake and could void any warranty....

I am still mulling over the ordering of a set. My current set of forklift batteries, 6 2v cells, weigh in at 330 lb. each and I am nearing the replacement point. I definitely do not want to have to go through the installation/removal again of these monsters, which I do by hand. The cost of the Ni/Fe is breath-taking, though if I'd had them available back 25 yr. ago, I likely would have had to do it only one time, assuming I could have come up with the scratch to buy them. There is the 30% tax credit involved, if the new Congress does not find a way to do away with it before 2016, and which would lessen the sting a bit.

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Re: Solar version Nickel-Iron battery specs ... released Oct 16 2010
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2010, 10:08:32 AM »
Just to chime in on some of the questions and comments posted so far.  I have been in the stationary battery industry for over 30 years with the past 28 with a company that only performs services on stationary batteries and their chargers.  Most of the work ahs been with lead acid both VLA and VRLA types.  (vented and valve regulated lead acid) with just a little exposure to nickel cadmium.  Just recently ( a few months back) I received a number of old Thomas Edison Nickel Iron cells to experiment on, and I have been having a ball.  We followed the instructions in the original Thomas Edison manual as to charging and electrolyte replacement and so far every cell has responded very well.  Even the ones that had 0.001 volt and were empty.

I utilized the aging formaula that is in the IEEE 1106 and 1115 documents to derate the loads for the discharge tests and they all are passing.  With many of these cells I continuously ran them into reversal and they would come back. 

Edison originally created these to be used in a cycle service application (electric vehicles, trains, tuggers) and they also were applied into the rail signal and communications, so I am confident that they could sure make a few thousand cycles.

PeterDe